<div dir="ltr">i agree with the quote of Joel Spolsky that Vadim posted .<br>it is the cultural difference which results in technological differences and not the other way around .<br><br>my experience with Microsoft programmers is that they are all busyness oriented rather than programing <br>
and most of the time the personal treatment is highly dependent on the organizational hierarchy ... or to cut to the <br>case they are simply all arrogant morons and corporate thugs <br>
<br>i don't have in-depth experience with linux , but things i find important is the efficiency of <br>the package management , for me windows software installation and upgrades are nightmares compared to linux <br>on my previous job i worked on .NET and most libraries and service packs insisted to be installed under C: and not in another partition <br>
and for each software installed the windows directory grew bigger and bigger because of installers stored files <br><br><br><br> <br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 3:57 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:haifux-request@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux-request@haifux.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: advanced of programming in Linux (Gabor Szabo)<br>
2. Re: advanced of programming in Linux (Shahar Dag)<br>
3. Re: advanced of programming in Linux (Vadim Eisenberg)<br>
4. Re: advanced of programming in Linux (Tal Abir)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 13:49:13 +0200<br>
From: Gabor Szabo <<a href="mailto:szabgab@gmail.com" target="_blank">szabgab@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
To: Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: Haifux <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>>, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:d8a74af10911020349h46e35cf6g3bc0767b628ddf20@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">d8a74af10911020349h46e35cf6g3bc0767b628ddf20@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
IMHO it is not only about "better" is also that by having a broader knowledge<br>
you increase your value and your chances to get a job.<br>
<br>
Interestingly recently I more and more see companies that use Linux.<br>
Even as the developer desktops.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda<br>
<<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hello all<br>
>><br>
>> mix & match is just a buzzword.<br>
><br>
> Change all files foo* to bar*. Easy with make or a shell loop, I am not<br>
> familiar with a convenient ready-made tool.<br>
><br>
<br>
I can give you another, similar examples.<br>
<br>
Replace the word Java by C# in every .txt file in a directory structure.<br>
Replace the field A4 in every Excel (.xls) file in a directory structure.<br>
Sum the 3rd column of every Excel file in a directory structure.<br>
<br>
I am sure you can write it in Windows shell but I am quite confident it<br>
is much simpler to write the above two either as a shell or as a perl script.<br>
<br>
<br>
Repeating tasks - History.<br>
Many tasks we do are repeating the same command in a slightly different way.<br>
<br>
The Linux/Unix version might need you to type in a 20-30 character<br>
long command.<br>
The windows version might be shorter and and might require less things<br>
to remember.<br>
It might involve clicking on 5 buttons and typing 2 strings.<br>
<br>
BUT, the next time you have to do the task - or a similar task - in<br>
the windowing system you will<br>
have to repeat the whole sequence while in a unix/linux shell where<br>
you have a history and<br>
strong editing capabilities you can reuse the precious solutions.<br>
<br>
<br>
In the end I am not sure the way to go is to advocate Unix/Linux. It<br>
might be to direct them to the<br>
command line, some high-level scripting language and maybe even cygwin<br>
to put them on the<br>
road in the direction....<br>
<br>
Some of them will arrive.<br>
<br>
Gabor<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 14:46:58 +0200<br>
From: "Shahar Dag" <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
To: "Haifux" <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:2C33C6095C504C86BAE7E2D236223C6D@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">2C33C6095C504C86BAE7E2D236223C6D@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8";<br>
reply-type=original<br>
<br>
Hello all<br>
<br>
everything is correct:<br>
some jobs are easier on Linux<br>
knowing another OS make you a better programmer<br>
Linux is free & so are most of its tools<br>
<br>
but what I am looking for is:<br>
a description of a simple every day job<br>
that windows people will say that they will have to spent half a day<br>
programming to automate it.<br>
that widows people will admit that it is something reasonable to do.<br>
a job that can be accomplished on Linux with 10 minutes<br>
and the result should be to bring the Windows people to consider Linux (at<br>
list) as their development environment<br>
<br>
Shahar<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: "Gabor Szabo" <<a href="mailto:szabgab@gmail.com" target="_blank">szabgab@gmail.com</a>><br>
To: "Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda" <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>><br>
Cc: "Haifux" <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>>; "Shahar Dag" <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:49 PM<br>
Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
<br>
<br>
> IMHO it is not only about "better" is also that by having a broader<br>
> knowledge<br>
> you increase your value and your chances to get a job.<br>
><br>
> Interestingly recently I more and more see companies that use Linux.<br>
> Even as the developer desktops.<br>
><br>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda<br>
> <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Hello all<br>
>>><br>
>>> mix & match is just a buzzword.<br>
>><br>
>> Change all files foo* to bar*. Easy with make or a shell loop, I am not<br>
>> familiar with a convenient ready-made tool.<br>
>><br>
><br>
> I can give you another, similar examples.<br>
><br>
> Replace the word Java by C# in every .txt file in a directory structure.<br>
> Replace the field A4 in every Excel (.xls) file in a directory structure.<br>
> Sum the 3rd column of every Excel file in a directory structure.<br>
><br>
> I am sure you can write it in Windows shell but I am quite confident it<br>
> is much simpler to write the above two either as a shell or as a perl<br>
> script.<br>
><br>
><br>
> Repeating tasks - History.<br>
> Many tasks we do are repeating the same command in a slightly different<br>
> way.<br>
><br>
> The Linux/Unix version might need you to type in a 20-30 character<br>
> long command.<br>
> The windows version might be shorter and and might require less things<br>
> to remember.<br>
> It might involve clicking on 5 buttons and typing 2 strings.<br>
><br>
> BUT, the next time you have to do the task - or a similar task - in<br>
> the windowing system you will<br>
> have to repeat the whole sequence while in a unix/linux shell where<br>
> you have a history and<br>
> strong editing capabilities you can reuse the precious solutions.<br>
><br>
><br>
> In the end I am not sure the way to go is to advocate Unix/Linux. It<br>
> might be to direct them to the<br>
> command line, some high-level scripting language and maybe even cygwin<br>
> to put them on the<br>
> road in the direction....<br>
><br>
> Some of them will arrive.<br>
><br>
> Gabor<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Haifux mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">Haifux@haifux.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux" target="_blank">http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux</a><br>
><br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:32:52 +0200<br>
From: Vadim Eisenberg <<a href="mailto:vadim.eisenberg@gmail.com" target="_blank">vadim.eisenberg@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
To: Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>>, Haifux <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:c9694f700911020532w2a2ea144ma00b77fd055b3a2a@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">c9694f700911020532w2a2ea144ma00b77fd055b3a2a@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"<br>
<br>
FYI – a nice article of Joel Spolsky about the differences between Unix and<br>
Windows - <a href="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Biculturalism.html" target="_blank">http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/Biculturalism.html</a> .<br>
<br>
<br>
Some quotes from the article:<br>
<br>
*By now, Windows and Unix are functionally more similar than different. They<br>
both support the same major programming metaphors, from command lines to<br>
GUIs to web servers; they are organized around virtually the same panoply of<br>
system resources, from nearly identical file systems to memory to sockets<br>
and processes and threads. There's not much about the core set of services<br>
provided by each operating system to limit the kinds of applications you can<br>
create.*<br>
<br>
*What's left is cultural differences.*<br>
<br>
*...*<br>
<br>
*What are the cultural differences between Unix and Windows programmers?<br>
There are many details and subtleties, but for the most part it comes down<br>
to one thing: Unix culture values code which is useful to other programmers,<br>
while Windows culture values code which is useful to non-programmers.*<br>
<br>
*...*<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
Vadim<br>
<br>
<br>
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello all<br>
><br>
> everything is correct:<br>
> some jobs are easier on Linux<br>
> knowing another OS make you a better programmer<br>
> Linux is free & so are most of its tools<br>
><br>
> but what I am looking for is:<br>
> a description of a simple every day job<br>
> that windows people will say that they will have to spent half a day<br>
> programming to automate it.<br>
> that widows people will admit that it is something reasonable to do.<br>
> a job that can be accomplished on Linux with 10 minutes<br>
> and the result should be to bring the Windows people to consider Linux (at<br>
> list) as their development environment<br>
><br>
> Shahar<br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Gabor Szabo" <<a href="mailto:szabgab@gmail.com" target="_blank">szabgab@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: "Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda" <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Cc: "Haifux" <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>>; "Shahar Dag" <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:49 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
><br>
><br>
> > IMHO it is not only about "better" is also that by having a broader<br>
> > knowledge<br>
> > you increase your value and your chances to get a job.<br>
> ><br>
> > Interestingly recently I more and more see companies that use Linux.<br>
> > Even as the developer desktops.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Hello all<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> mix & match is just a buzzword.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Change all files foo* to bar*. Easy with make or a shell loop, I am not<br>
> >> familiar with a convenient ready-made tool.<br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> > I can give you another, similar examples.<br>
> ><br>
> > Replace the word Java by C# in every .txt file in a directory structure.<br>
> > Replace the field A4 in every Excel (.xls) file in a directory structure.<br>
> > Sum the 3rd column of every Excel file in a directory structure.<br>
> ><br>
> > I am sure you can write it in Windows shell but I am quite confident it<br>
> > is much simpler to write the above two either as a shell or as a perl<br>
> > script.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Repeating tasks - History.<br>
> > Many tasks we do are repeating the same command in a slightly different<br>
> > way.<br>
> ><br>
> > The Linux/Unix version might need you to type in a 20-30 character<br>
> > long command.<br>
> > The windows version might be shorter and and might require less things<br>
> > to remember.<br>
> > It might involve clicking on 5 buttons and typing 2 strings.<br>
> ><br>
> > BUT, the next time you have to do the task - or a similar task - in<br>
> > the windowing system you will<br>
> > have to repeat the whole sequence while in a unix/linux shell where<br>
> > you have a history and<br>
> > strong editing capabilities you can reuse the precious solutions.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > In the end I am not sure the way to go is to advocate Unix/Linux. It<br>
> > might be to direct them to the<br>
> > command line, some high-level scripting language and maybe even cygwin<br>
> > to put them on the<br>
> > road in the direction....<br>
> ><br>
> > Some of them will arrive.<br>
> ><br>
> > Gabor<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Haifux mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">Haifux@haifux.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux" target="_blank">http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux</a><br>
> ><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Haifux mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">Haifux@haifux.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux" target="_blank">http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux</a><br>
><br>
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<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:57:10 +0200<br>
From: Tal Abir <<a href="mailto:tal.abir@gmail.com" target="_blank">tal.abir@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
To: Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
Cc: Haifux <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:38b44aa0911020557r3035f7b8tbe17f1f4a0355c30@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank">38b44aa0911020557r3035f7b8tbe17f1f4a0355c30@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
There is no such task.<br>
<br>
Thanks,<br>
Tal.<br>
<br>
On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Hello all<br>
><br>
> everything is correct:<br>
> some jobs are easier on Linux<br>
> knowing another OS make you a better programmer<br>
> Linux is free & so are most of its tools<br>
><br>
> but what I am looking for is:<br>
> a description of a simple every day job<br>
> that windows people will say that they will have to spent half a day<br>
> programming to automate it.<br>
> that widows people will admit that it is something reasonable to do.<br>
> a job that can be accomplished on Linux with 10 minutes<br>
> and the result should be to bring the Windows people to consider Linux (at<br>
> list) as their development environment<br>
><br>
> Shahar<br>
> ----- Original Message -----<br>
> From: "Gabor Szabo" <<a href="mailto:szabgab@gmail.com" target="_blank">szabgab@gmail.com</a>><br>
> To: "Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda" <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>><br>
> Cc: "Haifux" <<a href="mailto:haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">haifux@haifux.org</a>>; "Shahar Dag" <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
> Sent: Monday, November 02, 2009 1:49 PM<br>
> Subject: Re: [Haifux] advanced of programming in Linux<br>
><br>
><br>
> > IMHO it is not only about "better" is also that by having a broader<br>
> > knowledge<br>
> > you increase your value and your chances to get a job.<br>
> ><br>
> > Interestingly recently I more and more see companies that use Linux.<br>
> > Even as the developer desktops.<br>
> ><br>
> > On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:26 PM, Orna Agmon Ben-Yehuda<br>
> > <<a href="mailto:ladypine@gmail.com" target="_blank">ladypine@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> >><br>
> >><br>
> >> On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Shahar Dag <<a href="mailto:dag@cs.technion.ac.il" target="_blank">dag@cs.technion.ac.il</a>><br>
> wrote:<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> Hello all<br>
> >>><br>
> >>> mix & match is just a buzzword.<br>
> >><br>
> >> Change all files foo* to bar*. Easy with make or a shell loop, I am not<br>
> >> familiar with a convenient ready-made tool.<br>
> >><br>
> ><br>
> > I can give you another, similar examples.<br>
> ><br>
> > Replace the word Java by C# in every .txt file in a directory structure.<br>
> > Replace the field A4 in every Excel (.xls) file in a directory structure.<br>
> > Sum the 3rd column of every Excel file in a directory structure.<br>
> ><br>
> > I am sure you can write it in Windows shell but I am quite confident it<br>
> > is much simpler to write the above two either as a shell or as a perl<br>
> > script.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > Repeating tasks - History.<br>
> > Many tasks we do are repeating the same command in a slightly different<br>
> > way.<br>
> ><br>
> > The Linux/Unix version might need you to type in a 20-30 character<br>
> > long command.<br>
> > The windows version might be shorter and and might require less things<br>
> > to remember.<br>
> > It might involve clicking on 5 buttons and typing 2 strings.<br>
> ><br>
> > BUT, the next time you have to do the task - or a similar task - in<br>
> > the windowing system you will<br>
> > have to repeat the whole sequence while in a unix/linux shell where<br>
> > you have a history and<br>
> > strong editing capabilities you can reuse the precious solutions.<br>
> ><br>
> ><br>
> > In the end I am not sure the way to go is to advocate Unix/Linux. It<br>
> > might be to direct them to the<br>
> > command line, some high-level scripting language and maybe even cygwin<br>
> > to put them on the<br>
> > road in the direction....<br>
> ><br>
> > Some of them will arrive.<br>
> ><br>
> > Gabor<br>
> > _______________________________________________<br>
> > Haifux mailing list<br>
> > <a href="mailto:Haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">Haifux@haifux.org</a><br>
> > <a href="http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux" target="_blank">http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux</a><br>
> ><br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Haifux mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Haifux@haifux.org" target="_blank">Haifux@haifux.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux" target="_blank">http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/haifux</a><br>
><br>
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End of Haifux Digest, Vol 27, Issue 8<br>
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