<div dir="ltr">Nadav,<br><br>This is an absolutely amazing reply!!!. I am going to use every precious word at it - even multiple times.<br><br>Yossi<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Nadav Har'El <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:nyh@math.technion.ac.il">nyh@math.technion.ac.il</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex;">On Mon, Jan 26, 2009, Yossi Gil wrote about "[Haifux] Student complaints.":<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">> Folks, here is the list of the unedited gripe list of students. As you will<br>
> see, some of the problems are educational (MS WORD is sexy), other are<br>
> organizational (not enough quota), while others are technical (Eclipse<br>
> crashes). I am asking for your help mainly in dealing with the<br>
> psychological issues... Make it easier and more exciting for the students<br>
> to work with Linux.<br>
<br>
</div>Hi Yossi. I am not a student at the Technion, I finished my BA 15 years ago<br>
already and my MSc nine years ago (boy, time flies). But I do have some<br>
comments that might be valuable.<br>
<br>
Most of the complaints deal either with either bugs in the Linux system<br>
or with differences between it and the Windows system they are used to.<br>
<br>
The first type of complaint (bugs) is valid, but a bit harsh on Linux,<br>
because if you go to a Windows farm, or a SGI farm (those were the days...),<br>
or whatever, and spend hours upon hours there, you're also bound to find<br>
problems and bugs there. These bugs should be fixed, mitigated or at worst<br>
documented, but there is no way to avoid them completely. The better your<br>
system administrator is, the less your users will notice these problems.<br>
<br>
If your system administrator thinks that a 10 MB quota is enough for users<br>
(when I was a student, this is what the t2 admins thought :-)), he can't<br>
blaim Linux when users constantly go over this quota.<br>
<br>
The second type of complaint is more problematic in my opinion. Here the<br>
students are almost saying "I came to the Technion knowing operating system<br>
X, and I don't want to learn and use another one". This is a strange attitude<br>
to come to school with. I think the students who are saying this simply<br>
do not understand all the value and experience they are getting by working<br>
on Linux for a change. Here are, for example, some of these added value that<br>
they are getting:<br>
<br>
1. They are getting experience in yet another technology needed in the job<br>
market. And we're not talking here about some esoteric software that nobody<br>
will need in two years, but rather a system, Unix, that has been in<br>
constant (and growing) use since the 80s and used to run some of the<br>
most exciting servers we all here about on the news.<br>
<br>
2. They get exposed to more software engineering philosophies, operating<br>
system design issues, ways of thinking, that simply do not exist in<br>
Windows. The shell (command line), scripting and automation of everything,<br>
separation of Window system from OS, server processes, configuration files,<br>
and much much more. And of course there is the whole free software<br>
philosophy and the thriving world of free software development that exists<br>
out there.<br>
<br>
3. If they choose to use the same OS at home, they can get it absolutely<br>
free. Last time I checked, students always complain about the lack of<br>
money - so I find it hard to understand their desire to pay for Windows<br>
and the outrageously-expensive MS-Office.<br>
<br>
4. A typical Linux system has a much bigger variety of software than Windows,<br>
simply because on Windows every piece of commercial software (which is<br>
the type of software these students are wishing for) costs money.<br>
In a software development lab, most likely nobody will purchase software<br>
for photo editing, for OCR, for PDF encoding, for speech synthesis, or<br>
who knows what a student might need for his or her project or personal<br>
interests. On Linux, all of these things come (depending on how/what<br>
you installed) already with your OS, absolutely free.<br>
<br>
5. When they get to know Linux, they will learn that while there are indeed<br>
things that are more convenient on Windows, there are other things that<br>
are actually more convenient to do on Linux! Remote login and automation<br>
are just two examples.<br>
<br>
And now we come to what I consider the greatest advantage of Linux as a<br>
teaching device over any commercial system, be it Windows or Sun or Mac.<br>
<br>
I'll start with a personal story.<br>
<br>
My first encounter with Unix was a bit over twenty years ago.<br>
My father was working in AT&T Bell Labs in New Jersey (where Unix, C, and<br>
a lot of other great stuff was invented). He let me - a ten year old<br>
boy - play around with the Unix system there from home, and gave me two<br>
great books to learn from (Kernighan&Pike's "The Unix Programming Environment"<br>
and Kernighen&Ritchie's "The C Programming Language").<br>
But after I learned the basics from the books, one of the best things about<br>
learning to program in Bell Labs was that the source code of everything was<br>
available: When I wanted to know how some feature of "vi" worked, I could<br>
read the code and feel Bill Joy's joy of writing it. When I wanted to improve<br>
the Basic interpreter (don't ask ;-)), I just did. When the "new line<br>
discipline" was invented circa 1985 (allowing backspace to actually erase<br>
the character instead of just moving the cursor :-)), I read the "stty"<br>
source code to learn how it can be enabled. And so on, and so on.<br>
<br>
This was an amazing learning experience. To learn that on a computer,<br>
everything has a reason, and that reason can be traced. If something<br>
doesn't work properly, a programmer's recourse isn't to complain, isn't<br>
to pray that it will get fixed, but it is to find and fix the bug.<br>
<br>
Imagine that you're studying theoretical CS without access to the library.<br>
You're told that you can learn what you hear in class, but if you wish to<br>
learn more on a certain specific topic, you can't go to the library and<br>
pick up a book about it. This is what learning programming on Windows is<br>
like: Sure, you can do the exercises you get in class. But what if during<br>
these exercises you discover an interesting question about the OS you're<br>
using or one of its applications? You can't go to the source code ("the<br>
library") and learn from it.<br>
<br>
This is, I think, something that the students need to understand.<br>
Learning computer programming on Linux is a gift, not a chore. I think<br>
that if they seriously love computers (and didn't just come to study CS<br>
because it's the fashion) they will be greatful for this gift for the rest<br>
of their life. I know that I am.<br>
<br>
Now I'll address some of the specific comments:<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> הנושאים היחידים אליהם אתייחס הם נושאי לינוקס. במשך שנתיים אני נמצאת במעבדה<br>
</div>> כמעט כל יום, > ל היום (פרט לזמן בו אני נמצאת בהרצאות)<br>
<br>
It is quite obvious that these students do not only program on these<br>
computers, but also do everything else on them. And today even more than<br>
in the past, people need computers for a lot of things.<br>
<br>
The system administrator needs to be aware of this fact and configure the<br>
system accordingly - he cannot be cheap in quotas, he has to install a<br>
large variety of software (this is quite easy to do in Linux), and has<br>
to listen to the needs of the students.<br>
<br>
Moreover, it would be ridiculous if the teachers send the students to use<br>
these machines, but then demand them to use Windows (e.g., by needing<br>
to send MS-Office documents, by asking them to install Windows software,<br>
etc.).<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> ספציפית לגבי הפרויקט בשבוע האחרון קרו לנו פעמים תקלות בהעברת קבצים ממחשבי<br>
> המעבדה הביתה. לכולנו יש בבית מחשבי windows וכאשר תכננו משימות לשבוע<br>
> במחשבי המעבדה בהעברה למחשבים בבית פעמיים היו בעיות התאמת פורמט ומישהו היה<br>
> צריך להגיע לטכניון (למחשבי linux) כדי לטפל בבעיה לאפשר לקבוצה להמשיך<br>
> לעבוד בבית.<br>
<br>
</div>All these format issues should be dealt with a clue stick ;-)<br>
<br>
The only format issue that cannot be solved in a trivial manner are the<br>
office formats, and even there the solution is quite clear: DON'T USE<br>
MS-OFFICE. Use OpenOffice, both at home (it works on Windows!) and at<br>
the Technion. And remember that OpenOffice *can* read MS-Office documents,<br>
quite well.<br>
<br>
When these students go out to the real world, they *will* encounter systems<br>
of many types, not just Windows: Linux, Unix, mainframes, embedded systems,<br>
and so on and so on. It's a good thing to learn how to manage working on<br>
different types of systems together without needing to complain about<br>
formats, file transfers, etc., and instead knowing how to quickly solve<br>
these kinds of problems when they arise.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> בכל פעם שעלינו להכין מצגת או גרפים אנו עוברים למחשב שאינו במעבדה בגלל<br>
> שאנו רגילים לעבוד ב windows ועבודה בו חוסכת לנו זמן. הפרויקט דורש הכנת<br>
> מצגות רבות במהלכו ולכן נראה לי שהמעבדה שאחת ממטרותיה היא לשרת אותו אמורה<br>
> לספק כלים נוחים להכנת מצגות וגרפים.<br>
<br>
</div>These and similar questions shows students that appear not to want to<br>
learn anything new in the Technion, and continue to do what they are used<br>
to, just because they are used to. I don't accept this attitude.<br>
<br>
Besides, the saying goes: "The nipple is the only intuitive interface -<br>
everything else is learned".<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> אני מניחה שהמחשבים לא יועברו בחזרה ל windows בקרוב. אבל אני מקווה<br>
> שתלונותינו יעזרו לבאים אחרינו.<br>
<br>
</div>This is a good point. Maybe you should start a document or a Wiki or<br>
something titled "Using the Linux Lab for a Windows User" which talks<br>
about all the pitfalls and surprises a Windows fan will encounter when<br>
he or she starts to use the Linux lab.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> לא ניתן להתקין plagins ותוכנות שיסייעו לנו בעבודה השוטפת על הפרויקט.<br>
<br>
</div>Here the solution needs to be two two-pronged: First, the system administrator<br>
needs to be responsive and open to requests to install new software that<br>
students need. Second, the users should have enough quota to install new<br>
software on their own directory, if they wish to.<br>
<br>
It appears the quota problem is repeated by almost everyone who commented.<br>
I suggest that you should address this issue *immediately*. Disks are so<br>
cheap today, that there's simply no excuse to be cheap on quota. If you want,<br>
I can eleborate.<br>
This would be, no question about it, the first task I would ask the<br>
sysadmins to take care of.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> מחשבים לא מזהים התקני USB לא ניתן לבצע גיבויים לפרויקט ולהעביר קבצים<br>
> בין מחשבים.<br>
<br>
</div>Why does this happen? This issue simply needs to be solved.<br>
<br>
> *אני יודע שלרוב הבעיות ישנן פתרונות מקומיים**, **אולם אין סיבה שמעבר לשעות<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d">> הנדרשות לביצוע הפרויקט עצמו **"**נבזבז**" **עוד שעות רבות במאבקים עם מחשבי<br>
</div>> המעבדה**!!!*<br>
<br>
Again, somebody who things that learning how to solve real problems that<br>
happen on real machines is a waste of time. I think this is valuable<br>
experience.<br>
<div class="Ih2E3d"><br>
> בהיבט השלילי הדבר שהכי מפריע בעבודה עם לינוקס הוא תחליפי האופיס שמותקנים בה.<br>
><br>
> רוב המצגות והמסמכים שאנחנו כותבים נערכים גם בבית וגם במעבדה, ויש הרבה בעיות<br>
> בהעברת קבצים כאלה מאופיס של מיקרוסופט לתחליפי אופיס<br>
<br>
</div>Again, did anybody tell them that they can install OpenOffice at home too,<br>
and save hundreds of shekels in the process?<br>
<br>
This was my (pretty long) 2 cents. I hope it helped, even a bit.<br>
<br>
Nadav.<br>
<font color="#888888"><br>
--<br>
Nadav Har'El | Monday, Feb 2 2009, 8 Shevat 5769<br>
<a href="mailto:nyh@math.technion.ac.il">nyh@math.technion.ac.il</a> |-----------------------------------------<br>
Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |I have a watch cat! If someone breaks in,<br>
<a href="http://nadav.harel.org.il" target="_blank">http://nadav.harel.org.il</a> |she'll watch.<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br></div>